Felipe Campos (egoiste) wrote,
Felipe Campos

on the topic of No Doubt and Victoria's Secret; a conversation

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "Heresy. how would you feel about arm tattoos and striped uniforms with stars of david / triangles/ whatever they did with
gypsies patches"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "i cant remember the gypsy patch! i'm slipping"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "brown triangle"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "i suppose it depends on who is getting it"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "and why"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "on a fashion runway"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "fashion runway? FAIL"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "they should be locked up"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "maybe in some sort of camp"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "for sensitivity training and torture"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "ok so then... going with that. how do you feel about native american garb"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "do ya care"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "that's not a fair comparison"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "why not"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "a fair comparison would be those fashionistas with the runway show with people dressed like chasids"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "or some sort of symbolism representing the native americans being slaughtered by the white man"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "i considered that, but why is it not fair"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "not donning their headdress and beads"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "because it's not apples to apples"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "i considered that too. in no doubt's video, a cowboy points a gun at her head. does that fit"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "they are wearing traditional garb that's not theirs. they're not putting on symbols of oppression and death."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "not really. that's a poor historical retelling"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "not trying to turn symbols of death into fashion"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "aha. however, the gays have done that. not just fashion, but pride."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "if the aztecs required their sacrifices to wear some special paint or something before they beheaded them... and some fashionista
wore the paint in a runway show, that would be apples to apples"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "i see what you're getting at. but the pink triangles. "

#1:C0) Heresy says, "pride is different than a commercial fashion show where they're just trying to be controversial to get publicity so people will
notice them and buy their shit"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "if the victims wear the pink triangles in protest or memorialization... that's quite different than a third party trying to
profit from it and turn it into something less than horrible"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "I don't think victoria's secret was trying to be controversial. "sexy indian" is a pretty common costume, for women and

#1:C0) Heresy says, "anything a fashion designer or house would do in a show is completely selfish and has nothing to do with the victims of what they're
taking advantage of."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "agreed"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "until they eliminate the nfl teams and halloween costumes..."

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "unlike that chassid fashion spread with the nekkid women I showed you that one time"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "right"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "if they dressed in native american headdresses and started to hump dead white men...."

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "not only are they completely selfish, they use symbolic clothing and so forth more or less without regard to meaning
just to get publicity"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "they're shallow and stupid and pretentious"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "but they're greeeedy misers"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "so , continuing, urban outfitters has had a lot of bad press from the native community for appropriating mostly navajo

#1:C0) Heresy says, "i don't see anything wrong in being inspired by other cultures."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "now if they're stealing someone's design... that's something else"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "if they paid copyright fees etc. maybe that would make a difference"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "or turning sacred symbology into commercialization.."

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "can a tribe copyright its traditional garb"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "why not"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "I don't either, per se. I have been uppity and refused to go to Fiesta Texas, for example, in my youth. I detested the
commercialism of my culture for entertainment in a racist state that still considers Mexican to be a dirty word."

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "some have laughed at me and called me unreasonable"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "nothing wrong with that opinion either"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "I won't go to the alamo or to a texas rangers museum either, on similar principles."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "if there were an amusement park inspired by judaism, but not by jewish people... i'd probably go just to check it out and then be

#1:C0) Heresy says, "racist"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "right!"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "shopping malls and slurpees?"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "white European barbarism"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "so, whereas a simple hollywood representation of cowboys vs indians isn't necessarily a symbol of oppression and death,
would you say a tomahawk chop is?"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "not to a baseball fan"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "no, that's just an ignorant adaptation of someone else's cultural elements"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "mostly that came from the 1950s movies and tv shows"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "I've seen a whole stadium of Braves fans doing the tomahawk chop at once and it's scary in a way but I didn't get
oppression and death from it"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "There's no oppression and death in BASEBALL"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "yet it is, in essence, a symbol of oppression and death"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "in another context, it could be"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "elstwise, why use it they way braves fans, for example, do"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "it's no more than cheerleading"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "I understand context means a lot, but it's akin to people saying that's SO gay but insisting that it is not aspersion
against homosexuals. the roots and the essence actually is."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "the wave is racist against water creatures"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "The Braves did away with Chief Knock-a-homa who lived in a tent on the left-field line and did a war dance. It seemed
offensive to me, too"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "a tent a teepee"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "intent is everything"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "ignorance is something else"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "is it? if someone said to you they jewed somebody down, which you and I both know is a compliment from a lot of chinese
people, is intent everything?"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "i was just on the phone with a good friend of mine who said she went to a fundraiser last night... had one drink and then felt a bit
dizzy and really warm like a major hot flash... then she passed out, falling forward and bashing her head. i think she was roofied but she dismisses

#1:C0) Heresy says, "yes the intent is everything because the compliment does not come from a good place"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "just like gyped"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "or indian giver"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "but I just said that I've met chinese people who do think it comes from a good place. they have great admiration for

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "absolutely no negative connotations in their minds"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "if the speaker is aware (as they would be with "jewed") what the connation and origin is (e.g., jewish people are said to be cheap
and devious with money) then it's baaaad. same with "gyped" - but if they don't know the word comes from gypsy, then it's not bad"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "yes, and i didn't hold it against the asians who said the racist things to me as compliments because they really and truly
believed it is a compliment unlike the whiteys who say "i really jewed that boy down""

#1:C0) Heresy says, "and "that's so gay" is the same"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "the speakers realize by saying it is is an insult against homosexuals"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "so you have met similar asians. my first was a college sophomore. he simply could not understand why it was rude."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "i met plenty over there who said "we chinese are the jews of asia because we are devious and crafty""

#1:C0) Heresy says, "they said it with much pride"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "which in china is a revered thing, in gays, an old negative psychotic movie stereotype"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "but i assumed we were talking about the us americans who would be familiar with the origins and thus the jab at the ethnic
groups. i can understand why they may not associate "gyp" with gypsy"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "like the racist old calgon commercials: ancient chinese secret!"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "c'mon that's funny"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "and the chick was chinese"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "well, sure"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "chinese are the best at washing!"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "no tickee no shit"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "er shirt"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "when abercrombie made the Two Wongs Make it White tshirts, there was instant backlash from the USAmerican asians"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "yeah well that was entirely different"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "that's a pun"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "but they said it was racist toward asians"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "it is racist toward asians because it's playing on a common name to associate them with their past - but in a way that makes it
sound like all they're good for is laundry"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "ancient chinese secret makes it seem like they're just more clever than the rest of us non-chinese"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "which is racist"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "but funny"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "well, see, now you're getting at why I sometimes say racialist and sometimes I say racist. I don't see them as the same"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "they butt up against the same line"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "but one does not cross the line"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "she got them from you?"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "yes, but there again is intent. racialist could point to an admiration or love or affinity, whereas racist never does"

#451:C0) John Entwastrel says, "that's very doubtful"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "yes. racist the intent is mean spirited."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "maybe you could call it mean-spirited racism vs innocuous racism"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "like the term montezuma's revenge. as if no other culture got diarrhea."

#1:C0) Heresy says, "you can easily see where and how that came into popular culture"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "proximity and affinity"

#1:C0) Heresy says, "legend and bad water"

#69:C0) ExplodingPlasticInevitable says, "yes but it wouldn't be as pervasive a legend without proximity and affinity"

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